I asked a close friend of mine (who's an atheist) if he really, in his heart-of-hearts, believed that there is no God. I expected a bit of an open-ended hesitation, but got none. Here's his reply:
******************************
No problem, that’s not a difficult question for me in the least. As you know I’ve lived my entire life without faith from a young age (I was never convinced) and so it’s not something I ‘deal’ with. I think that as a child it’s much easy to shed the burden of religion then an adult because the longer you live with something you believe in the harder it is to give it up and face all the time and energy lost in life on something meaningless (in general, I’m not referencing yourself here).
To answer your question though, my best assessment of reality is that there surely is no gods, God, Allah, Christ or whatever else we’ve imagined in our extremely short time on this earth. It’s actually kind of hard for me to level with religious people because to me, the idea is just so silly, preposterous, counter-productive, pointless, mind-numbing, ridiculous and stone-age-like I find it impossible to not be condenscending, which I totally hate to come off as. With older people [part delete], it’s easy. I like playing along with it because I know it’s something that makes them happy. I mean, what older person couldn’t use the belief that they will live forever in some paradise being visited by all their loved ones as they die off one by one? Sure makes getting old and dying easy, probably the main reason religion will always be part of human society. People want to live forever, like duh..
I’ll continue in a second, just want to send this off….
Friday, November 9, 2007
The poor dude has nails through his hands and feet.
After some further email exchanges with my well-respected atheist friend where he just kind of rails about 'the problem of evil' issue he wrote me this nice little summation which is kind of nice I thought:
************
I always say that if there is a god then he’s a real asshole for what he’s allowed his children to do to each other and the earth. Personally, I don’t want to be associated with this type of being, omnipotent or not. And White Jesus is a lie. Hell all of Christianity is just elements of past religions. Other religions are slightly more appealing (other than Islam) but none more unappealing then the symbol of a guy being tortured on a cross. Do you ever think of that. Just look at that image and forget all the weird justifications and stories. Just look at the image and think to yourself, how can this be anything good? The poor dude has nails through his hands and feet. Look at how popular the Mel Gibson movie was.. sick..
************
I always say that if there is a god then he’s a real asshole for what he’s allowed his children to do to each other and the earth. Personally, I don’t want to be associated with this type of being, omnipotent or not. And White Jesus is a lie. Hell all of Christianity is just elements of past religions. Other religions are slightly more appealing (other than Islam) but none more unappealing then the symbol of a guy being tortured on a cross. Do you ever think of that. Just look at that image and forget all the weird justifications and stories. Just look at the image and think to yourself, how can this be anything good? The poor dude has nails through his hands and feet. Look at how popular the Mel Gibson movie was.. sick..
Epistemology and Ethics: How do we know what's good and evil?
(reply to my atheist friend)
Fair enough here. …
Two concepts I think I disagree with you on:
1. “there’s nothing more subjective then concepts like ‘good’ and ‘bad’”
2. “I can easily break them all in a single evening and feel no remorse, guilt or regret”
On #1.
I think ‘good’ and ‘evil’ are in fact fairly universal throughout all mankind. Its pretty obvious. Good is anything that promotes life. (especially for me and those extentions of me like my kids, parents, friends, etc.)
Things like food, health, clothing, warmth, love, comradery, exercise of the mind and body, wealth (generally and to an extent). These are all categorically ‘good’ for basically any human (and living creature). ‘evil’ or bad is the “taking of away of that life” ….. death, pain, poverty, general ignorance and stupidity, etc.
Even a worm knows to squirm and try to get away when death and pain await him on the end of a fishing hook.
Good and evil are universal “knowns” and are only subjectively defined by whether we’re talking about you or me.
On #2.
I’d hesitate to claim that you or anyone could quit so easily kill, maim, steal, lie, cheat, etc. (10 commandments) with or without God.
You say you could, but don’t, not because of God but because (I assume) society would punish you if you got caught. (?) and so to avoid punishment we don’t kill, injure, steal from others? There’s some truth to this but there’s another side also. And Lord help us if its just the governmental laws and enforcements that prevent us all from going ape-shit on each other.
I’d have to suggest that we proceed doing good to others (and not doing evil – 10 commandments) because man has an ability to see outside our selves and even look back upon ourselves from outside. This allows us to visualize being treated by others in good and bad ways. It allows us to visualize and feel the placement of ourselves into “the shoes of others”. We have the unique trait (evolved or not) called EMPATHY.
We can feel for others because we can imagine ourselves in that position.
Do you not feel for the frozen widow, abused child, hit-over-the-head-and-robbed neighbor? Of course you do. And you do because you know intuitively that it is best to “do to others, what you would have them do to you” because you can picture that pain happening to YOU.
That’s what being human is.
Now, where’s evil come from?
I do know that all acts of evil require only one thing first – the cancelation of empathy.
You can generally only steal, hurt, kill, etc. when you see in your mind that other person, not as another “you” and not as a “you, me, person” at all. They become an “it”. A person Unlike me. Not a person at all in fact. But a thing. An it. Someone outside of that realm of ‘me’.
So, empathy (conscious ?) can be overcome. Especially if the need for me is for MY good. But the payment of EVIL to YOU is never evil in my mind. Because you are not a “you”… you are an “it”… something not me or like me.
I would even propose that in the mind of any actor of evil, it is never evil in their mind, because evil can only be applied to myself (or someone like myself). So even when I do evil, when I turn off my empathy capacity, in my mind I am doing good.
Fair enough?
I’ll reply to other emails as I read them… do you care if I publish these conversations?
Fair enough here. …
Two concepts I think I disagree with you on:
1. “there’s nothing more subjective then concepts like ‘good’ and ‘bad’”
2. “I can easily break them all in a single evening and feel no remorse, guilt or regret”
On #1.
I think ‘good’ and ‘evil’ are in fact fairly universal throughout all mankind. Its pretty obvious. Good is anything that promotes life. (especially for me and those extentions of me like my kids, parents, friends, etc.)
Things like food, health, clothing, warmth, love, comradery, exercise of the mind and body, wealth (generally and to an extent). These are all categorically ‘good’ for basically any human (and living creature). ‘evil’ or bad is the “taking of away of that life” ….. death, pain, poverty, general ignorance and stupidity, etc.
Even a worm knows to squirm and try to get away when death and pain await him on the end of a fishing hook.
Good and evil are universal “knowns” and are only subjectively defined by whether we’re talking about you or me.
On #2.
I’d hesitate to claim that you or anyone could quit so easily kill, maim, steal, lie, cheat, etc. (10 commandments) with or without God.
You say you could, but don’t, not because of God but because (I assume) society would punish you if you got caught. (?) and so to avoid punishment we don’t kill, injure, steal from others? There’s some truth to this but there’s another side also. And Lord help us if its just the governmental laws and enforcements that prevent us all from going ape-shit on each other.
I’d have to suggest that we proceed doing good to others (and not doing evil – 10 commandments) because man has an ability to see outside our selves and even look back upon ourselves from outside. This allows us to visualize being treated by others in good and bad ways. It allows us to visualize and feel the placement of ourselves into “the shoes of others”. We have the unique trait (evolved or not) called EMPATHY.
We can feel for others because we can imagine ourselves in that position.
Do you not feel for the frozen widow, abused child, hit-over-the-head-and-robbed neighbor? Of course you do. And you do because you know intuitively that it is best to “do to others, what you would have them do to you” because you can picture that pain happening to YOU.
That’s what being human is.
Now, where’s evil come from?
I do know that all acts of evil require only one thing first – the cancelation of empathy.
You can generally only steal, hurt, kill, etc. when you see in your mind that other person, not as another “you” and not as a “you, me, person” at all. They become an “it”. A person Unlike me. Not a person at all in fact. But a thing. An it. Someone outside of that realm of ‘me’.
So, empathy (conscious ?) can be overcome. Especially if the need for me is for MY good. But the payment of EVIL to YOU is never evil in my mind. Because you are not a “you”… you are an “it”… something not me or like me.
I would even propose that in the mind of any actor of evil, it is never evil in their mind, because evil can only be applied to myself (or someone like myself). So even when I do evil, when I turn off my empathy capacity, in my mind I am doing good.
Fair enough?
I’ll reply to other emails as I read them… do you care if I publish these conversations?
Do we pay for our wrong-doings? Can someone pay for me?
My final reply to my respected atheist friends last reply went like this:
*********
A sacrifice of self in payment for crimes is the standard “make things right” story.
Whether it’s jail time, money fine, 50 lashes on the back, or the electric chair – if you did wrong you must suffer for it.
The fact that a single perfect person could somehow exchange and take on the penalty that belongs to others is the ultimate love story.
It’s a beautiful and rich story if nothing else. But yes I agree the death sentence torture picture carried around as a symbol is a bit bizarre and sadistic. But the one soldier that risked his life to save others, or the father that faced the enemies to protect his family and dies … these are the ultimate love stories, don’t you think? What is love if it is not the loss of something of self for the gain and salvation of another?
I don’t agree with the sacrifice of self for payment system as a universal proper means to reestablish evil humans with a holy god … but it seems to ring deep within the human psyche as a fair exchange. (at least with Christians and primitive tribes like Aztecs and others that sacrificed animals and people to appease their gods.)
White Jesus is of course a cultural and historical massaging of an image to be more like us. Christians in Africa tend to make Jesus negroid. It may not be accurate but it’s not evil.
And the whole “problem of evil” doesn’t have a good answer but there’s no thinking person who hasn’t considered this – many ending up having faith in god still. … If nothing else there’s the whole “God made man free” and/or the “God made man good and he corrupted himself (fall from garden)” storyline .. . I don’t buy these but I’m not sure I buy that – “if there was a good god he would stop all people (and animals) from ever hurting each other” bit either.
Something’s going on and he may or may not exist…. But the existence of pain and suffering itself doesn’t indicate he doesn’t. In fact, if you go the yin/yang route, humans can’t know joy without knowing sorrow…… can’t know life w/o knowing death… etc. etc…
Maybe the urge itself just to cry back “hey it’s not fair” is just a childish cry. Maybe humans have growing up to do still to make sense of mysteries we don’t understand.
But on a very simple level – yes …. If God is All-powerful and God is All-good then the “All good” totally rules! and there is no such thing as pain, sorrow, death, violence, disease!
1 + 1 = 2
I suspect, if there is a God, our assumptions of the 1 + 1 are not correct. He is not All-Powerful and/or he is not All-Good.
Of course he may not exist.
Truthfully, it’s easier to think that he’s pure imaginary anyway, but the existence of evil doesn’t in my mind necessitate the call.
That’s why I think there’s something to the myth of the Garden of Eden. It was the very taking on of man of the first ‘knowledge’ of good and evil. Binary - either/or categorizing of reality itself according to the myth is what BIRTHED the consciousness (and self-consciousness) of man.
It isn’t like Adam only knew ‘good’ before the fall and then he knew ‘evil’ afterwards. He knew NEITHER good NOR evil before the fall. He knew BOTH afterwards. This is the story of the birth man – some deep primordial memory, like in a dream, that rings deep enough within man to become the primary creation myth of Western civilization itself.
In evolutionary terms, when man became man (with self-awareness and such – remember how they ran around naked till this thing happened… and THEN they became ashamed (self-conscious) of themselves. Others smarter than myself hypothesize that this growth of awareness coincides with the beginnings of language itself in the history of man (Walker Percy). Others think this birth occurred possibly due to mind-altering drugs within cultures that sparks the brains into leaps of evolution and alternate forms of thinking (Julian Jaynes, “Food of the Gods” Terence McKenna)
Mitch
*********
A sacrifice of self in payment for crimes is the standard “make things right” story.
Whether it’s jail time, money fine, 50 lashes on the back, or the electric chair – if you did wrong you must suffer for it.
The fact that a single perfect person could somehow exchange and take on the penalty that belongs to others is the ultimate love story.
It’s a beautiful and rich story if nothing else. But yes I agree the death sentence torture picture carried around as a symbol is a bit bizarre and sadistic. But the one soldier that risked his life to save others, or the father that faced the enemies to protect his family and dies … these are the ultimate love stories, don’t you think? What is love if it is not the loss of something of self for the gain and salvation of another?
I don’t agree with the sacrifice of self for payment system as a universal proper means to reestablish evil humans with a holy god … but it seems to ring deep within the human psyche as a fair exchange. (at least with Christians and primitive tribes like Aztecs and others that sacrificed animals and people to appease their gods.)
White Jesus is of course a cultural and historical massaging of an image to be more like us. Christians in Africa tend to make Jesus negroid. It may not be accurate but it’s not evil.
And the whole “problem of evil” doesn’t have a good answer but there’s no thinking person who hasn’t considered this – many ending up having faith in god still. … If nothing else there’s the whole “God made man free” and/or the “God made man good and he corrupted himself (fall from garden)” storyline .. . I don’t buy these but I’m not sure I buy that – “if there was a good god he would stop all people (and animals) from ever hurting each other” bit either.
Something’s going on and he may or may not exist…. But the existence of pain and suffering itself doesn’t indicate he doesn’t. In fact, if you go the yin/yang route, humans can’t know joy without knowing sorrow…… can’t know life w/o knowing death… etc. etc…
Maybe the urge itself just to cry back “hey it’s not fair” is just a childish cry. Maybe humans have growing up to do still to make sense of mysteries we don’t understand.
But on a very simple level – yes …. If God is All-powerful and God is All-good then the “All good” totally rules! and there is no such thing as pain, sorrow, death, violence, disease!
1 + 1 = 2
I suspect, if there is a God, our assumptions of the 1 + 1 are not correct. He is not All-Powerful and/or he is not All-Good.
Of course he may not exist.
Truthfully, it’s easier to think that he’s pure imaginary anyway, but the existence of evil doesn’t in my mind necessitate the call.
That’s why I think there’s something to the myth of the Garden of Eden. It was the very taking on of man of the first ‘knowledge’ of good and evil. Binary - either/or categorizing of reality itself according to the myth is what BIRTHED the consciousness (and self-consciousness) of man.
It isn’t like Adam only knew ‘good’ before the fall and then he knew ‘evil’ afterwards. He knew NEITHER good NOR evil before the fall. He knew BOTH afterwards. This is the story of the birth man – some deep primordial memory, like in a dream, that rings deep enough within man to become the primary creation myth of Western civilization itself.
In evolutionary terms, when man became man (with self-awareness and such – remember how they ran around naked till this thing happened… and THEN they became ashamed (self-conscious) of themselves. Others smarter than myself hypothesize that this growth of awareness coincides with the beginnings of language itself in the history of man (Walker Percy). Others think this birth occurred possibly due to mind-altering drugs within cultures that sparks the brains into leaps of evolution and alternate forms of thinking (Julian Jaynes, “Food of the Gods” Terence McKenna)
Mitch
Wednesday, November 7, 2007
Is Delusion of God good?
For those that don't care to navigate through the last ramble, here's the succinct version:
Maybe God doesn't exist, but mayber its better to pretend that He does.
(I can't believe I'm debating this childish stuff in my head. Why can't I be like normal Christians and just believe in God up to the point where it conflicts with practical aspects of life. Nooooooooooooo..... I have to REALLY believe.)
(Or really not believe.)
I am an extremist.
And I became a Christian originally because I was seeking out the truth. Of course I was on a lot of LSD at the time. :)
U2's line of "I still haven't found what I'm looking for" has become my mantra for life. I'm just tired. When does the "Seek and ye shall find" part kick in?
Maybe God doesn't exist, but mayber its better to pretend that He does.
(I can't believe I'm debating this childish stuff in my head. Why can't I be like normal Christians and just believe in God up to the point where it conflicts with practical aspects of life. Nooooooooooooo..... I have to REALLY believe.)
(Or really not believe.)
I am an extremist.
And I became a Christian originally because I was seeking out the truth. Of course I was on a lot of LSD at the time. :)
U2's line of "I still haven't found what I'm looking for" has become my mantra for life. I'm just tired. When does the "Seek and ye shall find" part kick in?
Tuesday, November 6, 2007
Truth vs. Good
what i learned this morning.
learned item #1:
truth does not equal good... in otherwords, these are not the same... it can not be assumed that truth itself will always produce good. It does not.
The serpent told the truth to Eve in the garden that if she ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil she would become LIKE God himself - knowing both good and evil. He told her the truth. But knowing the truth in itself was not a good thing - for Eve, and Adam, and for all their children forever.
this is one of the secrets of the story of the garden.
hmmmm...
I always assumed that truth = good. That if I could find the knowledge and facts and history and truth of the story and nature of man and God and earth - that that would be good.
Wrong-oh!
learned item #2:
God is not the god of this world... in fact there probably is no god of this world other than the billions of human beings living here. Each.
(Jesus, David, and God all said humans were gods - look it up.)
consider Jesus's prayer:
"Daddy - who lives in ANOTHER WORLD"
"Hallowed by thy name" - whatever it is, however its pronounced, hats off to the eternal taboo of man that words in this world are a bridge to the next - including the power to tap into or offend that other world.
"May Your world come."
"May Your will" (and desires and control and government) be done -
"in THIS world like it is in YOUR world."
Get it? God is god of his own world. Not this one. His will isn't done here on earth. Jesus said we should pray and ask him and wish that it would happen.
So if he is the god of heaven then he's not the god of earth which is where I live - here - 3D visual, green, planet with blue water as seen from the space shuttle.
Conclusion: There is no God - in this world. (God being defined as the supreme being of "Good" and all-mighty power that makes all things happen)
if i combined this items i could conclude that if the God we understand and believe in (Supreme all-mighty loving power in another world) does NOT EXIST IN THIS WORLD
and
it may not actually be good to know this (truth does NOT = good), then its probably best to believe that there is a God over our world even though there isn't one.
So, the Great God in Heaven may be there but He's not here but its good to pretend that he is. (presto! - religion!)
Everybody - one big group-hug illusion - let's prayer and pretend He answers, hears us, does what we ask (if its good and He knows its good - which nullifies the whole request kinda doesn't it?) and gives us comfort and relief and salvation and hope etc. etc.
learned item #1:
truth does not equal good... in otherwords, these are not the same... it can not be assumed that truth itself will always produce good. It does not.
The serpent told the truth to Eve in the garden that if she ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil she would become LIKE God himself - knowing both good and evil. He told her the truth. But knowing the truth in itself was not a good thing - for Eve, and Adam, and for all their children forever.
this is one of the secrets of the story of the garden.
hmmmm...
I always assumed that truth = good. That if I could find the knowledge and facts and history and truth of the story and nature of man and God and earth - that that would be good.
Wrong-oh!
learned item #2:
God is not the god of this world... in fact there probably is no god of this world other than the billions of human beings living here. Each.
(Jesus, David, and God all said humans were gods - look it up.)
consider Jesus's prayer:
"Daddy - who lives in ANOTHER WORLD"
"Hallowed by thy name" - whatever it is, however its pronounced, hats off to the eternal taboo of man that words in this world are a bridge to the next - including the power to tap into or offend that other world.
"May Your world come."
"May Your will" (and desires and control and government) be done -
"in THIS world like it is in YOUR world."
Get it? God is god of his own world. Not this one. His will isn't done here on earth. Jesus said we should pray and ask him and wish that it would happen.
So if he is the god of heaven then he's not the god of earth which is where I live - here - 3D visual, green, planet with blue water as seen from the space shuttle.
Conclusion: There is no God - in this world. (God being defined as the supreme being of "Good" and all-mighty power that makes all things happen)
if i combined this items i could conclude that if the God we understand and believe in (Supreme all-mighty loving power in another world) does NOT EXIST IN THIS WORLD
and
it may not actually be good to know this (truth does NOT = good), then its probably best to believe that there is a God over our world even though there isn't one.
So, the Great God in Heaven may be there but He's not here but its good to pretend that he is. (presto! - religion!)
Everybody - one big group-hug illusion - let's prayer and pretend He answers, hears us, does what we ask (if its good and He knows its good - which nullifies the whole request kinda doesn't it?) and gives us comfort and relief and salvation and hope etc. etc.
Monday, November 5, 2007
Friday, November 2, 2007
Two Sources of Truth: Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition
******* Email Repsonse from my friend John in Chicago ********************
Just wanted to get back to you with some ideas
Thought filled considerate compassionate and on fire rhetoric
First and probably essential to my thought process of God is that there are two sources of Truth
Sacred scripture and Sacred Tradition
2nd I have chosen to accept the teaching of the Apostles and their successors
3rd my confidence rests on historical foundation of the literature commonly accepted and taught throughout the world
Some conclusions are an accurate assessment of reality
Some conclusions are my impressions of the meanings of this information
Delusions developed by my imagination or created for me by misunderstanding Truth
These are my perceptions, as inaccurate and flawed as the case maybe
I hope I am not being abstract or evasive am I ????
So too the big IF does lay in the back of my mind any way
Perhaps this is just an illusion?????
However, the foundation of the entire idea of God is FAITH I think don't you???
So then there must be even an incling of this Faith to be earnestly and honestly pursuing God
Otherwise we proceed from this vantage point into imagination and illusion
I recall reading John Paul Sartre and William Percy
But does this bore you ??sorry if it does. I'll drop it.
Moving into the arena of Faith I find myself swept away by my presumption
The unexplainable taken at the simple words handed down to us by those who gave their very own blood and suffering for this Truth which they died for
Jesus himself the prime suffering one the bearer of that great God we all long to know
The tangible of the intangible the visible of the invisible
His word more carefully chosen than my own will ever be
He is the One revealer of all that is good all that is Truth
Sorry I'm on fire Hope that you didn't get burned
Just wanted to get back to you with some ideas
Thought filled considerate compassionate and on fire rhetoric
First and probably essential to my thought process of God is that there are two sources of Truth
Sacred scripture and Sacred Tradition
2nd I have chosen to accept the teaching of the Apostles and their successors
3rd my confidence rests on historical foundation of the literature commonly accepted and taught throughout the world
Some conclusions are an accurate assessment of reality
Some conclusions are my impressions of the meanings of this information
Delusions developed by my imagination or created for me by misunderstanding Truth
These are my perceptions, as inaccurate and flawed as the case maybe
I hope I am not being abstract or evasive am I ????
So too the big IF does lay in the back of my mind any way
Perhaps this is just an illusion?????
However, the foundation of the entire idea of God is FAITH I think don't you???
So then there must be even an incling of this Faith to be earnestly and honestly pursuing God
Otherwise we proceed from this vantage point into imagination and illusion
I recall reading John Paul Sartre and William Percy
But does this bore you ??sorry if it does. I'll drop it.
Moving into the arena of Faith I find myself swept away by my presumption
The unexplainable taken at the simple words handed down to us by those who gave their very own blood and suffering for this Truth which they died for
Jesus himself the prime suffering one the bearer of that great God we all long to know
The tangible of the intangible the visible of the invisible
His word more carefully chosen than my own will ever be
He is the One revealer of all that is good all that is Truth
Sorry I'm on fire Hope that you didn't get burned
I don’t wanna get burned either
****** my reply to John ********
Thanks for the on-fire hope…. I don’t wanna get burned either. My apologies if I introduced you to Sartre’ and sorry if you spent unneeded time reading Percy (he was a believing Catholic, you know.)
The two sources of truth are the easiest to sweep away, although yes, the historical sound case can be made for belief.
Faith – I’m not sure what this is or where it comes from or what it even means really…. Can you have faith in a truism ? I suspect you can only have faith (or not) in Good itself – being what we wrap with the persona of God. Yes that’s abstract, but my hunch is that the fall of man itself is seeded in the FINDING of good and evil, i.e. the Knowledge of good and evil, i.e. the fact that we think in terms of and sort out categorically things into ‘good’ and ‘evil’. The fact that we bucketize, categorize it all! (but yet we have to – that’s what speech is)
Did Adam separate out in his mind and speech into good and evil before the discovery of knowledge? No.
How did he know God before? By faith? I think not.
But his own self-awareness (and shame) through the ‘knowledge’ of good and evil was his curse that man has lived with ever since. God himself has faded into the background and has Himself become only some penultimate cloud of conscious ‘Good’ and all that it means to be ‘good’. (total sovereignty, total power, consummate love, biggest baddest bestest father, wisest creator without a face or body but does have a manifestation of himself into flesh (his son) and his invisible being that floats within and upon and around us (his spirit).
THAT is the god I am calling into question! The one that I/we have made and supported with ancient memories, texts, accounts of miracles and walking on water and healings and resurrections that just smell like stories – yet stories that meet a deep need within.
I don’t want to deny God. I just don’t want to be responsible for supporting Him. And I sure don’t want to continue an emotional imagery that tends to fade the longer I live in this world – that even reeks with the feel of self-creation.
It’s been a long time since any of us were in the garden.
Does anybody remember what it was like?
Thanks for the on-fire hope…. I don’t wanna get burned either. My apologies if I introduced you to Sartre’ and sorry if you spent unneeded time reading Percy (he was a believing Catholic, you know.)
The two sources of truth are the easiest to sweep away, although yes, the historical sound case can be made for belief.
Faith – I’m not sure what this is or where it comes from or what it even means really…. Can you have faith in a truism ? I suspect you can only have faith (or not) in Good itself – being what we wrap with the persona of God. Yes that’s abstract, but my hunch is that the fall of man itself is seeded in the FINDING of good and evil, i.e. the Knowledge of good and evil, i.e. the fact that we think in terms of and sort out categorically things into ‘good’ and ‘evil’. The fact that we bucketize, categorize it all! (but yet we have to – that’s what speech is)
Did Adam separate out in his mind and speech into good and evil before the discovery of knowledge? No.
How did he know God before? By faith? I think not.
But his own self-awareness (and shame) through the ‘knowledge’ of good and evil was his curse that man has lived with ever since. God himself has faded into the background and has Himself become only some penultimate cloud of conscious ‘Good’ and all that it means to be ‘good’. (total sovereignty, total power, consummate love, biggest baddest bestest father, wisest creator without a face or body but does have a manifestation of himself into flesh (his son) and his invisible being that floats within and upon and around us (his spirit).
THAT is the god I am calling into question! The one that I/we have made and supported with ancient memories, texts, accounts of miracles and walking on water and healings and resurrections that just smell like stories – yet stories that meet a deep need within.
I don’t want to deny God. I just don’t want to be responsible for supporting Him. And I sure don’t want to continue an emotional imagery that tends to fade the longer I live in this world – that even reeks with the feel of self-creation.
It’s been a long time since any of us were in the garden.
Does anybody remember what it was like?
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